Back   

2015-03-27
When is a desire?
In The Possibility of Altruism, Thomas Nagel advocates substituting reasons for the role in human motivation traditionally played by desires.  He sees the need because what people desire is an empirical matter revealed in behavior, and varies too greatly to provide the kind of inescapability he thinks morality requires:  reasons can be "agent-neutral", whereas desires must always be "agent-relative" (to use terms later introduced by Parfit).  But Nagel specifically rejects the possibility that this approach conflates causal explanation with normative justification:  "a close connection between the two is already embodied in the ordinary concept of a reason" (15).  

He proposes to dethrone desires by drawing attention to a particular problem regarding the role of "future desires" in practical reasoning.  For example, suppose I now purchase a bottle of water for quenching the thirst I anticipate I will experience later in my drive home.  How do we explain this purchase?  Nagel claims that the anticipated thirst cannot explain it:  that is a future desire.  But I am not thirsty now, hence that cause does not yet exist.  So if desire is needed to explain my purchase, it must involve some other desire I have now -- e.g. a desire to be prudent with regard to my expected thirst.  Nagel then argues this raises all sorts of further difficulties, involving the relation between current and future desires as well as other problematic aspects of the desire account.

Instead of venturing into those thickets, I wish to show that Nagel's notion of "future desires" (or "future interests") is itself inherently and fatally flawed, and embodies the very conflation he seeks to skirt.

To begin with, thirst (nor hunger, sleepiness, tumescence, etc.) is not a desire.  This is not to quibble over the fact that thirst is something to which one is typically averse; we can allow aversions as "negative desires".  The point rather is that thirst as such is simply a bodily sensation, a dryness in the throat betokening a state of relative dehydration.  Now typically it is something to which one is averse, something one would prefer to avoid or quickly ameliorate, but this need not be, and is not, always the case.  An ascetic, for example, might celebrate the sensation as validation of self-denial, or a stoic might regard it with utter indifference.  In other words, having thirst is one thing, valuing thirst is quite another.  To desire something is inherently to ascribe value to it, positive or negative:  to see it as something one would prefer to be, or not to be, the case.

So if valuing thirst is distinct from having thirst, then presumably the time that the valuing begins need not be the same time that the thirst begins.  It would be extremely odd to suppose that a person, having had previous experiences of thirst, could not e.g. negatively assess it prior to future occurrences.  Indeed, surely this is generally the case.  Desires are not conditions that only come upon us when their objects obtain.  Rather, they are persistent evaluations that represent enduring assessments of ourselves and the world we are in.

Consequently, it is aberrant to see one’s own desires as subject to significant variation, predictable or otherwise.  And one can take such variations into account now only if doing so comports with the desires one has now -- one can hardly transport oneself completely out of one’s own valuation of things to assess the relative importance of one’s valuations at different stages of time.  But without wading more deeply into such waters, a simple point remains.  I purchase the water now because I desire not-to-be-thirsty-later now:  because right now I regard that pending quenching of thirst as a valuable thing.  I don’t need to wait until I actually experience that thirst to suppose I won’t like it.  So in particular I don’t need any other problematic supplementary desire, distinct from my aversion to thirst, to explain my anticipatory purchase of the water.  

Only if you confound thirst with the desire not to be thirsty will you find “future desires” problematic for practical reasoning.  Nagel falls victim after all to "an illegitimate conflation of explanatory and normative inquiries" (15-16).  He confuses persons’ sensory/bodily states, appropriate to causal accounts of behavior, with their evaluations of such states, appropriate to normative and justificatory accounts.  In short, when a desire exists and persists should not be conflated with when the conditions appropriate to the satisfaction of that desire exist.  Hence, Nagel’s notion of "future desires" is hopelessly compromised, and any dismissal of the appropriateness of desire in accounting for human motivation predicated upon it is premature.  Concern about morality in this regard may also be premature.  The rational inescapability of logic and mathematics does not depend on whether people actually reason and behave accordingly; why should morality be thought any different?


2015-03-30
When is a desire?
Reply to Gerald Hull
Given that your starting premise is false, we have no good reasons to accept the rest of your thesis.  Nagel does not advocate what you state in your first premise.  On the contrary, this is what he says in The Possibility of Altruism (1970:29--30):

"That I have the appropriate desire simply *follows* from the fact that these considerations motivate me; if the likelihood that an act will promote my future happiness motivates me to perform it now, then it is appropriate to ascribe to me a desire for my own future happiness.  But nothing follows about the role of the desire as a condition contributing to the motivational efficacy of those considerations." (Emphasis in the original.)

In other words, as McDowell explains: "the desire does not function as an independent extra component in a full specification of [ones] reason[s]."  That is, "the desire need not function as an independent component in the explanation, needed in order to account for the capacity of the cited reason[s] to influence the agent's will."  (Are moral requirements hypothetical imperatives?)

2015-03-31
When is a desire?
I appreciate your comments.  Nagel's remarks at times are maddeningly opaque, and I welcome any clarification of his reasoning.  You appear to take my starting premise to be "thirst ... is not a desire".  So the Nagel reference is to show that that premise is false, because for him thirst is a desire after all:  "That I have the appropriate desire simply follows from the fact that these considerations motivate me".

But I am not disputing whether there is a desire present.  Rather, I am disputing whether that desire can be identified with thirst simpliciter.  For one can distinguish between the sensation/state of experiencing thirst and any desire (attribution of value) regarding it.  My claim (put simply) is that Nagel conflates the object of desire with desire.  My thirst (the object) is something that will occur later in the day.  But my desire regarding that thirst is something that exists right now.

I agree that we can infer that someone desires something merely from the fact that they are motivated by it.  So one can infer that I desire to alleviate thirst from the fact that I am moved to alleviate it.  But the alleviation behavior warranting that inference includes not only drinking from the water bottle when I later experience thirst, but also the purchase of that water in the first place.

In short, while my later sensation/state of thirst cannot explain the water purchase now, my current desire regarding that object -- i.e., my (enduring) favorable valuation of thirst-alleviation -- can.  Therefore, because it rests on a conflation of desire with its object, Nagel's discussion of "future desires" (Section VI, 33-46), and all that depends upon it, is fatally compromised.


2015-04-01
When is a desire?
Reply to Gerald Hull
Dear Jerry,

I didn't want to get into a discussion about the nature of desire, or what counts as desire, nor did I think that your starting premise was 'thirst ... is not desire'.  Rather, I was simply commenting on the starting premise of your thesis, namely, that Nagel substitutes reasons for desires, and I wanted to point out that that's not what Nagel aims to do.  It's true that Nagel is inclined towards the idea of reason being efficacious contrary to a form of Humean view that reason is inert with no efficacy to motivate the will, and that the only motivating power, on this view, is desire; indeed, as Hume puts it: the will is the child of desire.

However, Nagel, as I understand him, does not want 'to substitute reasons for desires'; rather, he wants to integrate the two -- hence the quotation I used in my previous reply which indicates clearly that he does not exclude desire from an explanation concerning motivation.  In other words, for Nagel, reasons and appropriate desires are not external to each other; desire, on his conception, need not be an independent component -- independent of reason or reasons -- in an explanatory account of human, rational motivation.

I hope this helps.

Best,
Andrea


2015-04-01
When is a desire?
Dear Andrea,

Thanks; that does make better sense of your reply.  Since I had not formulated or formatted my remarks syllogistically, it was unclear to me what you took to be my "first premise".  

I take the point that my lede was at best misleading.  I should more clearly have said that for Nagel reasons take over from desires the primary role in accounting for human motivation; I did not mean to suggest that he tosses them out as so much conative phlogiston.  That he doesn't is obvious from the 2nd paragraph on, but of course the reader has to get that far.

I hope this clarifies things.  Perhaps it allays some of the deficit in good reasons for considering the remainder of my remarks :-).

Yours,
Jerry


2015-05-18
When is a desire?
Reply to Gerald Hull
Kibbey & Wagner Kibbey & Wagner, Criminal Attorneys